Need Battery Recommendations
- Thread starter Mlazarus
- Start date
kungfoojesus
Member
There's "safe" chemistry lithium and there's volatile lithium such as lithium polymer. You haven't seen a bomb until you've soldered as many lithium polymer cells as I have (they have to be soldered in a vacuum (sort of a vacuum its complicated) just so they don't combust during a failure). atmospheric pressure fluctuations cause failures in cells not at nominal voltage, IE a mile climb and descent daily. Fed Ex lost 2 pilots to these cells early on before they were regulated to ground travel only (my former boss's daughter was one of the pilots we lost).
"safe" is relative to other lithium ion cells. I do not believe even cobalt manganese chemistry or iron chemistry is safe to walk away from unless stored at nominal voltage in a nominal temperature within a room that has halon or otherwise unbeatable suppression system. I would add a chemical suppression system to any lithium cell, period, that I use in a car or motorcycle. Its a simple pressurized hose that melts and smothers the cell in the event of a fire, well worth the time and energy to fit. The next best thing to such a device is a suppression bag, a bag designed to not allow air in but will not pressurize air trying to get out. This is the minimum safety standard and is not adequate imo versus a chemical suppression system.
again, you're losing road force to (in extremely skilled hands on a very calculated track grade environment) reduce 60 foot times. The physics don't lie, you're better off not making this compromise on the FTR chassis. Fill your gas tank up half way and buy a lighter helmet for way more substantial gains. Guys over inflate the tires, nitride and wax your chain, etc etc. So many other places to make substantial gains w/out compromising road force in the worst spot on the entire chassis for no practical benefit. Hell, I'd even argue the dumbest gimmick of all time, pure nitrogen filled tires, will do far more. Literally eat more fiber or go on a walk each evening probably does more! Of course, just do none of this if you ask IMC... for many reasons including they built the damn thing.
I'd have to cut open the actual motorcycle "lithium" labeled "batteries" to see what the heck they're actually using. Its all lies and gimmicks in the "capacitance industry" is what I'd call it I guess. This shit been around since the 70's its just now getting to a point its cheaper to produce it and sell it (thanks to the UN allowing strip mining and child labor as long as its not in roughly 50 places on earth). LiFe does definitely burn up in certain situations involving boats, EV's, RV's, solar arrays, and other house batteries. What internal resistance, temperature, load, volt drop, etc it has to produce to fail varies from system to system tbh but it happens all the time trust me.
I'd put the risk in the realm of gun safety, bike safety, or working under a car on jack stands even. You do everything you can but you're still playing with fire and shit happens, regardless of ego. That doesn't stop me from riding a bike or going to the gun range, but the ignorance involved with these cells is astounding by comparison. I've gone to shooting ranges my whole life just fine but every 4-5 years somebody gets hurt at the same range, due to failure not neglect usually.
Just to vet cells for import I have to fly a proxy to Beijing and benchmark them in person. China's practices are not kind to importers. Its a mess on even "knowing" what you're buying. Zero accountability on that side of the pond. A top shelf quality batch/lot of cells varies in cycles to keep it simple, by 100%. Yes the exact same identical cells can vary from 150 to 300 cycles per unit. The absolute best cells don't even exist on market or are about $100-$200 USD per amp hour right now in titanate if they do. Its too soon.
Guys can use them for years no problem but due to lottery odds its just such a shame to see even 1 in 3,000,000 or whatever the number is lose their house, for no reason what so ever. There's only like 8,000,000 motorcycle licenses in the US or so right? Still sucks if it happens to just 1 person for no benefit or actual need in their life, just ego. Safe chemistry LiFe definitely vents as designed safely like I dunno but likely a 99.999999999% of the time but when it vents more than it was supposed to and causes enough compression to ignite the gasses during gas off/ventilation... why? If they're purely safe WHY are there 8,000+ LiFe injuries a year in the US alone? Nobody knows cuz nobody is paid to know, imo.
Final thought, to those that have used lithium cells just fine for years in bike X, have you actually opened the case and measured the cells? They've expanded, a lot, no way they haven't... that's why replace each season, period. Its unavoidable and if you read the fine print many a manufacturer says "do not used bloated or expanded blah blah blah". Guess who's liable for not measuring their cells they'd have to cut open a plastic case to measure? In fact, most of the time the polymer case expands by end of season, not much extra room in there. Its not your imagination, that flat wall wasn't curved before lol. The expansion happened from bad charging and also that time you ran the battery down to aa measured 8.4v after a 1v volt drop at the terminals/internally.... yawwwwp close call buddy, that's 3 cells sitting on your baby at a near catastrophic voltage. Lose another volt or 2 and venting time baby. If you load tested that battery you'd be shocked to find it doesn't even have half its original capacity. Since you're not using capacity, just amps, you'll never notice. Sadly, the volt curve will be good for starting well past the safe service life of the "safe" battery that expanded after 1 season if not 1 mistake or 1 ride. This incredible volt curve is also why lifepo4 outlasts lead acid, its not actually safe anymore from "safe" failure but what's happening is even down to like 10-20% of original capacity the first or second attempt at starting isn't seeing lower voltage yet. You're actually witnessing a cell that intentionally broke as designed due to using the internal cells past their "safe chemistry" point, which in turn burned the diode/bar/linkage etc out at a "safe" point when the voltage finally did drop enough to sever the link or trigger the shunt/BMS etc.
Its severely bad practice to use lithium metal cells until they stop working. Lithium polymer, the craziest one if you run enough in series, always blows to kingdom come 100% of time at failure before it fails to work. LiFePo4 is the most benevolent which typically will stop function in the intended application before catastrophic failure in most cases.
Don't even get me started on the construction of most super cells, multi series cells. Most motorcycle batteries you cut open have shitty soldering, weak flimsy bus bars, no real BMS, and recycled chinesium wiring going to those fat ass terminals more than capable of pulling 100A current at 12-14v (roughly 1200 watts?) through a wrench, and entirely too small vent holes for the rarely bad cells due to lottery odds (around the terminals its technically not sealed and can vent or blow the clips apart that snap the top on). Just a shitty bottleneck that you hope fails before the cells dead short across one another or the battery gets so hot that it ends up dead shorting across the cells 10 minutes later thanks to thermal runaway.
You'll see guys losing their legs to the $7,000+ lithium polymer rocking surons soon, promise you that. Dear god when one of those blows its gonna leave small but quite literal crater. I know because it happened to a E-Bike enthusiast in the UK years and years ago before most people even knew about EV's, big bada boom with lithium polymer.
LiFePo4 aftermath, was on a battery tender happened in the winter, probably dendrites but who knows. Dendrites are crystals that grow always, faster or slower depending on conditions, in all lithium metal cells.
"safe" is relative to other lithium ion cells. I do not believe even cobalt manganese chemistry or iron chemistry is safe to walk away from unless stored at nominal voltage in a nominal temperature within a room that has halon or otherwise unbeatable suppression system. I would add a chemical suppression system to any lithium cell, period, that I use in a car or motorcycle. Its a simple pressurized hose that melts and smothers the cell in the event of a fire, well worth the time and energy to fit. The next best thing to such a device is a suppression bag, a bag designed to not allow air in but will not pressurize air trying to get out. This is the minimum safety standard and is not adequate imo versus a chemical suppression system.
again, you're losing road force to (in extremely skilled hands on a very calculated track grade environment) reduce 60 foot times. The physics don't lie, you're better off not making this compromise on the FTR chassis. Fill your gas tank up half way and buy a lighter helmet for way more substantial gains. Guys over inflate the tires, nitride and wax your chain, etc etc. So many other places to make substantial gains w/out compromising road force in the worst spot on the entire chassis for no practical benefit. Hell, I'd even argue the dumbest gimmick of all time, pure nitrogen filled tires, will do far more. Literally eat more fiber or go on a walk each evening probably does more! Of course, just do none of this if you ask IMC... for many reasons including they built the damn thing.
I'd have to cut open the actual motorcycle "lithium" labeled "batteries" to see what the heck they're actually using. Its all lies and gimmicks in the "capacitance industry" is what I'd call it I guess. This shit been around since the 70's its just now getting to a point its cheaper to produce it and sell it (thanks to the UN allowing strip mining and child labor as long as its not in roughly 50 places on earth). LiFe does definitely burn up in certain situations involving boats, EV's, RV's, solar arrays, and other house batteries. What internal resistance, temperature, load, volt drop, etc it has to produce to fail varies from system to system tbh but it happens all the time trust me.
I'd put the risk in the realm of gun safety, bike safety, or working under a car on jack stands even. You do everything you can but you're still playing with fire and shit happens, regardless of ego. That doesn't stop me from riding a bike or going to the gun range, but the ignorance involved with these cells is astounding by comparison. I've gone to shooting ranges my whole life just fine but every 4-5 years somebody gets hurt at the same range, due to failure not neglect usually.
Just to vet cells for import I have to fly a proxy to Beijing and benchmark them in person. China's practices are not kind to importers. Its a mess on even "knowing" what you're buying. Zero accountability on that side of the pond. A top shelf quality batch/lot of cells varies in cycles to keep it simple, by 100%. Yes the exact same identical cells can vary from 150 to 300 cycles per unit. The absolute best cells don't even exist on market or are about $100-$200 USD per amp hour right now in titanate if they do. Its too soon.
Guys can use them for years no problem but due to lottery odds its just such a shame to see even 1 in 3,000,000 or whatever the number is lose their house, for no reason what so ever. There's only like 8,000,000 motorcycle licenses in the US or so right? Still sucks if it happens to just 1 person for no benefit or actual need in their life, just ego. Safe chemistry LiFe definitely vents as designed safely like I dunno but likely a 99.999999999% of the time but when it vents more than it was supposed to and causes enough compression to ignite the gasses during gas off/ventilation... why? If they're purely safe WHY are there 8,000+ LiFe injuries a year in the US alone? Nobody knows cuz nobody is paid to know, imo.
Final thought, to those that have used lithium cells just fine for years in bike X, have you actually opened the case and measured the cells? They've expanded, a lot, no way they haven't... that's why replace each season, period. Its unavoidable and if you read the fine print many a manufacturer says "do not used bloated or expanded blah blah blah". Guess who's liable for not measuring their cells they'd have to cut open a plastic case to measure? In fact, most of the time the polymer case expands by end of season, not much extra room in there. Its not your imagination, that flat wall wasn't curved before lol. The expansion happened from bad charging and also that time you ran the battery down to aa measured 8.4v after a 1v volt drop at the terminals/internally.... yawwwwp close call buddy, that's 3 cells sitting on your baby at a near catastrophic voltage. Lose another volt or 2 and venting time baby. If you load tested that battery you'd be shocked to find it doesn't even have half its original capacity. Since you're not using capacity, just amps, you'll never notice. Sadly, the volt curve will be good for starting well past the safe service life of the "safe" battery that expanded after 1 season if not 1 mistake or 1 ride. This incredible volt curve is also why lifepo4 outlasts lead acid, its not actually safe anymore from "safe" failure but what's happening is even down to like 10-20% of original capacity the first or second attempt at starting isn't seeing lower voltage yet. You're actually witnessing a cell that intentionally broke as designed due to using the internal cells past their "safe chemistry" point, which in turn burned the diode/bar/linkage etc out at a "safe" point when the voltage finally did drop enough to sever the link or trigger the shunt/BMS etc.
Its severely bad practice to use lithium metal cells until they stop working. Lithium polymer, the craziest one if you run enough in series, always blows to kingdom come 100% of time at failure before it fails to work. LiFePo4 is the most benevolent which typically will stop function in the intended application before catastrophic failure in most cases.
Don't even get me started on the construction of most super cells, multi series cells. Most motorcycle batteries you cut open have shitty soldering, weak flimsy bus bars, no real BMS, and recycled chinesium wiring going to those fat ass terminals more than capable of pulling 100A current at 12-14v (roughly 1200 watts?) through a wrench, and entirely too small vent holes for the rarely bad cells due to lottery odds (around the terminals its technically not sealed and can vent or blow the clips apart that snap the top on). Just a shitty bottleneck that you hope fails before the cells dead short across one another or the battery gets so hot that it ends up dead shorting across the cells 10 minutes later thanks to thermal runaway.
You'll see guys losing their legs to the $7,000+ lithium polymer rocking surons soon, promise you that. Dear god when one of those blows its gonna leave small but quite literal crater. I know because it happened to a E-Bike enthusiast in the UK years and years ago before most people even knew about EV's, big bada boom with lithium polymer.
LiFePo4 aftermath, was on a battery tender happened in the winter, probably dendrites but who knows. Dendrites are crystals that grow always, faster or slower depending on conditions, in all lithium metal cells.
Last edited:
mark.lb
Well-known member
kungfoojesus: Honest question. If lithium batteries are as dangerous as you say they are, then why is the United States government in a head long rush to put 200-300 million EVs on the road in the next 2 decades? This would place millions and millions of lithium batteries on chargers in home garages all over the country. As all these batteries age and dendrites form they will become even more dangerous.
R. Warshawsky
Active member
I think I will stick with the stock battery....LOLThere's "safe" chemistry lithium and there's volatile lithium such as lithium polymer. You haven't seen a bomb until you've soldered as many lithium polymer cells as I have (they have to be soldered in a vacuum (sort of a vacuum its complicated) just so they don't combust during a failure). atmospheric pressure fluctuations cause failures in cells not at nominal voltage, IE a mile climb and descent daily. Fed Ex lost 2 pilots to these cells early on before they were regulated to ground travel only (my former boss's daughter was one of the pilots we lost).
"safe" is relative to other lithium ion cells. I do not believe even cobalt manganese chemistry or iron chemistry is safe to walk away from unless stored at nominal voltage in a nominal temperature within a room that has halon or otherwise unbeatable suppression system. I would add a chemical suppression system to any lithium cell, period, that I use in a car or motorcycle. Its a simple pressurized hose that melts and smothers the cell in the event of a fire, well worth the time and energy to fit. The next best thing to such a device is a suppression bag, a bag designed to not allow air in but will not pressurize air trying to get out. This is the minimum safety standard and is not adequate imo versus a chemical suppression system.
again, you're losing road force to (in extremely skilled hands on a very calculated track grade environment) reduce 60 foot times. The physics don't lie, you're better off not making this compromise on the FTR chassis. Fill your gas tank up half way and buy a lighter helmet for way more substantial gains. Guys over inflate the tires, nitride and wax your chain, etc etc. So many other places to make substantial gains w/out compromising road force in the worst spot on the entire chassis for no practical benefit. Hell, I'd even argue the dumbest gimmick of all time, pure nitrogen filled tires, will do far more. Literally eat more fiber or go on a walk each evening probably does more! Of course, just do none of this if you ask IMC... for many reasons including they built the damn thing.
I'd have to cut open the actual motorcycle "lithium" labeled "batteries" to see what the heck they're actually using. Its all lies and gimmicks in the "capacitance industry" is what I'd call it I guess. This shit been around since the 70's its just now getting to a point its cheaper to produce it and sell it (thanks to the UN allowing strip mining and child labor as long as its not in roughly 50 places on earth). LiFe does definitely burn up in certain situations involving boats, EV's, RV's, solar arrays, and other house batteries. What internal resistance, temperature, load, volt drop, etc it has to produce to fail varies from system to system tbh but it happens all the time trust me.
I'd put the risk in the realm of gun safety, bike safety, or working under a car on jack stands even. You do everything you can but you're still playing with fire and shit happens, regardless of ego. That doesn't stop me from riding a bike or going to the gun range, but the ignorance involved with these cells is astounding by comparison. I've gone to shooting ranges my whole life just fine but every 4-5 years somebody gets hurt at the same range, due to failure not neglect usually.
Just to vet cells for import I have to fly a proxy to Beijing and benchmark them in person. China's practices are not kind to importers. Its a mess on even "knowing" what you're buying. Zero accountability on that side of the pond. A top shelf quality batch/lot of cells varies in cycles to keep it simple, by 100%. Yes the exact same identical cells can vary from 150 to 300 cycles per unit. The absolute best cells don't even exist on market or are about $100-$200 USD per amp hour right now in titanate if they do. Its too soon.
Guys can use them for years no problem but due to lottery odds its just such a shame to see even 1 in 3,000,000 or whatever the number is lose their house, for no reason what so ever. There's only like 8,000,000 motorcycle licenses in the US or so right? Still sucks if it happens to just 1 person for no benefit or actual need in their life, just ego. Safe chemistry LiFe definitely vents as designed safely like I dunno but likely a 99.999999999% of the time but when it vents more than it was supposed to and causes enough compression to ignite the gasses during gas off/ventilation... why? If they're purely safe WHY are there 8,000+ LiFe injuries a year in the US alone? Nobody knows cuz nobody is paid to know, imo.
Final thought, to those that have used lithium cells just fine for years in bike X, have you actually opened the case and measured the cells? They've expanded, a lot, no way they haven't... that's why replace each season, period. Its unavoidable and if you read the fine print many a manufacturer says "do not used bloated or expanded blah blah blah". Guess who's liable for not measuring their cells they'd have to cut open a plastic case to measure? In fact, most of the time the polymer case expands by end of season, not much extra room in there. Its not your imagination, that flat wall wasn't curved before lol. The expansion happened from bad charging and also that time you ran the battery down to aa measured 8.4v after a 1v volt drop at the terminals/internally.... yawwwwp close call buddy, that's 3 cells sitting on your baby at a near catastrophic voltage. Lose another volt or 2 and venting time baby. If you load tested that battery you'd be shocked to find it doesn't even have half its original capacity. Since you're not using capacity, just amps, you'll never notice. Sadly, the volt curve will be good for starting well past the safe service life of the "safe" battery that expanded after 1 season if not 1 mistake or 1 ride. This incredible volt curve is also why lifepo4 outlasts lead acid, its not actually safe anymore from "safe" failure but what's happening is even down to like 10-20% of original capacity the first or second attempt at starting isn't seeing lower voltage yet. You're actually witnessing a cell that intentionally broke as designed due to using the internal cells past their "safe chemistry" point, which in turn burned the diode/bar/linkage etc out at a "safe" point when the voltage finally did drop enough to sever the link or trigger the shunt/BMS etc.
Its severely bad practice to use lithium metal cells until they stop working. Lithium polymer, the craziest one if you run enough in series, always blows to kingdom come 100% of time at failure before it fails to work. LiFePo4 is the most benevolent which typically will stop function in the intended application before catastrophic failure in most cases.
Don't even get me started on the construction of most super cells, multi series cells. Most motorcycle batteries you cut open have shitty soldering, weak flimsy bus bars, no real BMS, and recycled chinesium wiring going to those fat ass terminals more than capable of pulling 100A current at 12-14v (roughly 1200 watts?) through a wrench, and entirely too small vent holes for the rarely bad cells due to lottery odds (around the terminals its technically not sealed and can vent or blow the clips apart that snap the top on). Just a shitty bottleneck that you hope fails before the cells dead short across one another or the battery gets so hot that it ends up dead shorting across the cells 10 minutes later thanks to thermal runaway.
You'll see guys losing their legs to the $7,000+ lithium polymer rocking surons soon, promise you that. Dear god when one of those blows its gonna leave small but quite literal crater. I know because it happened to a E-Bike enthusiast in the UK years and years ago before most people even knew about EV's, big bada boom with lithium polymer.
LiFePo4 aftermath, was on a battery tender happened in the winter, probably dendrites but who knows. Dendrites are crystals that grow always, faster or slower depending on conditions, in all lithium metal cells.
mark.lb
Well-known member
My FTR lost a little over 10lbs today!
I finally replaced my original OEM battery with a X2 Power - Lithium Iron Phosphate battery (CYL10088) from Batteries Plus+. Price was very reasonable at $150 plus tax. Installation was a snap. It came with 3 plastic spacers that are used to match the OEM battery height. (Just make sure your charger/maintainer has a 12V lithium setting.) Warranty is 3 years. I will let the forum know if I have any problems or issues with this brand.
I finally replaced my original OEM battery with a X2 Power - Lithium Iron Phosphate battery (CYL10088) from Batteries Plus+. Price was very reasonable at $150 plus tax. Installation was a snap. It came with 3 plastic spacers that are used to match the OEM battery height. (Just make sure your charger/maintainer has a 12V lithium setting.) Warranty is 3 years. I will let the forum know if I have any problems or issues with this brand.
Attachments
This thread was helpful in replacing my battery. My stocker finally stopped holding a charge for more than a single day. Since I don’t want to be stranded when it finally gives up I decided to replace it.
Reading all the data above and recalling the owner of the one company never really following up I decided to Amazon a stock unit.
Was surprised it came with separate acid and you have to wait for it to absorb then charge it. Kind of assumed it would be ready to go. It was simple and with it being really hot I wasn’t in a rush to be riding anyway.
Reading all the data above and recalling the owner of the one company never really following up I decided to Amazon a stock unit.
Was surprised it came with separate acid and you have to wait for it to absorb then charge it. Kind of assumed it would be ready to go. It was simple and with it being really hot I wasn’t in a rush to be riding anyway.
MilwDave
Active member
Adding the acid is pretty simple, just follow the instructions.
I’ve done it quite a few times.
Something doesn´t work .. Noco is down and will not be recharged after install in june. Was loaded up before ..everything fine..The ´19 batt´ died. Were on a NOCO since it was available over here (long time wait for) , last week.
Got a C-Tek Charger for and will see ..
@Max Kool
Two months later ..
Don´t know if it would be a eletronic thing. The Batt´ is down and the CTek charger doesn´t see it anymore.
Info. The CTek charger works fine on a other brand batt´, LiFePO4.
Back to a Motobatt (MBYZ16H / HD) for the next year
Last edited:
Good question (no power accessoires used on, ´19RR ).. installed in june and it was ok since.
Last weekend ..dead ..no power .. but it seems is a electronic thing or safety imho which i dont know at the moment.
Went back to the motobatt as typed .. charge that one (1/3 loadead on delivery)..
Works as easy and start the trip.. over here
Last weekend ..dead ..no power .. but it seems is a electronic thing or safety imho which i dont know at the moment.
Went back to the motobatt as typed .. charge that one (1/3 loadead on delivery)..
Works as easy and start the trip.. over here
Last edited:
Obiratus
Member
My battery gets replaced for free. It's a really nice vendor I bought it from.