Not understanding whats wrong with my FTR

[Breto]

It’s a bit conflicting. On one hand I have Maverick from Fuelmoto telling me it’s a physical problem (vacuum leak).
On the other hand I have a mechanic saying they are not finding anything and it presumably has something to do with the tune.
My main thing here is that with the factory exhaust and tune installed, the bike still occasionally stalls when warm (70 degrees C) while idling
It never had or showed these problems even before I had it tuned.

I’ll be sending a mail today to Polaris and see what their action is going to be.

I was given a bit of advice from LLoyds when I installed the tune for my Toce via the pv3. Instal the tune. Wait 15 minutes and then start the bike with no input at all. Just hit the starter. Let it run by itself up to the point where the fan cuts in. Turn it off and then wait 20-30 minutes and then start it again and then ride it like normal. I’m only saying this because I made the mistake of being impatient and cracking the throttle open pretty well as soon as I started it with the new tune. This resulted in major backfiring, flames and sparks spitting out of the exhaust and running as ruff as. Maybe just have a go at reloading the tune and see what happens. Can’t hurt to try. Are you running FM’s rev b tune?

 

[LonelyIndian]

Thanks for the input! So currently it has the stock tune and stock exhaust (with baffles removed) installed. I used to have the REV b installed and had zero issues.
Since the recall I have had issues with both tunes.

I have gotten the same advice from fuelmoto to give it a couple rides to have the ECU adapt to the new tune. Since my rides to work are about 25 minutes long I always gave it about three days of riding.

 

[LonelyIndian]

Just a quik update for the people still interested.

The garage couldn't fix the problem. They have tried everything and checked everything physically. There's nothing mecanically or electrically with the motorcycle. The engine always stalls when coming to a stop.
They still blame it on a battery not being hooked up properly and causing induction charge on the electrical circuit, which resulted in ECU damage. The same errors, eg cylinder misfire, pop op when the engine stalls

This sounds a bit odd to me since the engine still starts, idles and runs. The only problem is when the engine is coming to a halt. It just shuts off completely when pulling the clutch lever.

I'm no mechanic in anyway but I'm rather skeptical of this. Anyone have more knowledge than I have and would love to give his/her insight or opinion?

Cheers

 

[mark.lb]

Is there any possibility your dealership (or you and a FTR friend) pulling a ECU from parts department or another bike and trying it in your motorcycle? [I’m not sure if this is even possible if the ECU is somehow locked to a particular VIN.] You would quickly know if a damaged ECU is your issue. If done by the dealership, you could simply purchase the ECU they install if it corrects the problem. If not - they put the ECU back into parts inventory and figure out what else could be causing the issue.

 

[LonelyIndian]

That’s indeed a good suggestion. They have made this one themselves but casually mentioned that it would take a lot of time to find someone who was willing to lend them an ECU from a 2019 FTR. Since I found this a rather strange remark, I talked to my legal advisor (included in my insurance) and based on their remarks I made an appointment with another garage in the Netherlands.

I have asked Fuelmoto if their explanation about the battery is plausible and they have expressed their doubts. Apparantly the ECU could handle some EMI.

When I collected the bike today I had a chance to talk to the mechanic who did all of the work. He was a bit baffled when I told them the problems were already happening when I collected the bike after the recall and not when I changed the battery myself.

That same mechanic has also quit their job because of how bad the garage is being run.
I’m not the guy to start pointing fingers and telling everyone that someone is at fault for my problems. I always wait for any results before I start taking action but I think this quite simply confirms my suspicions about the garage just fucking up.

I hope the new garage will find something. My guess, based on all the input, is that something is going wrong on the air intake side.

I’ll post an update if the other garage manages to find something.

 

[MacBayne]

Replying to Macbayne. Sorry it took a bit longer. I kinda lost track of it with multiple things going around here.

The voltage is fine while cranking. I can give you the exact data but I have to look it up.

I don’t understand the ‘sudden’ drop. Could you explain this a bit more.

First edit: These numbers I will give generally hold true for modern, 12V "EFI" motorcycle systems, with a Lead-Acid Battery.

Sorry for the delay... it's the middle of winter so my summer hobbies aren't on my mind, lately.

So, first, nothing personal, but I wanted numbers, because in other forums, it is typical of an OP to post "voltage is good," when in fact they just can't admit that they know how to use a multimeter. I am NOT saying that is the case here, but I spent a long time on Gixxer.com trying to help dudes with electrical (and 2006-2010 was notoriously bad for electrical). "It's fine," drives me fricking nuts and I have blocked many users. Again, that is not what I am saying here, but numbers matter.

The reason I asked for so many numbers was to rule out different parts/issues. EFI engines are way more electronically complicated than carb's, obviously, but what most people dont realize HOW MUCH more. The number of people here in Edmonton I hear or see starting their cars and letting them idle in the driveway at -30C to "charge" their batteries is baffling. All that does is kill the battery.

This is NOT necessarily directed only at you, but maybe someone else is asking why I asked so many questions.... so I will answer why I did. For anyone reading... if you want to know more about what I am talking about or how a multi meter works and how to use it, I will take all the time in the world to help you if you simple gimme precise numbers. I know that I have saved a lot of people 10s of thousands of dollars, combined on other forums, either by doing it themselves and guiding them, or finding what their mechanic is missing.

Voltage across terminals with the key off and the bike sitting a while tells us the voltage at rest. If it holds at 12.6 or higher over a couple of days, we know that the stator charges, the R/R permits enough (enough does not mean correct) voltage across the system to charge, and the battery passes test one. there are more battery tests.

Testing battery CURRENT flow with the key OFF gives us "leakage current" while off. Most motorcycles leak a couple milliamps just sitting in the garage, no key, everything off. That's why we need to use trickle chargers, because if there is a draw of say 0.50A with everything turned off... that battery is leaking 0.5 Ah... and if your battery only has a 6 Ah capacity... it will be dead soon. A huge leak... or even in the order of 0.003 A could mean a ground fault within a battery connection.

Excessive current leak with the key ON, means that there is a leak along a supply...

Low voltage on cranking means the battery may be dickered and should be taken to a shop for a load test. Did it read 12.6 at rest? if it did, that means that the internal resistance is high and it cannot supply enough juice. Think of running your garden hose... letting go of the nozzle, and turning of the valve at the house. There is still the same pressure in that hose without being used, like your battery at 12.6V, but if you squeeze the nozzle you only get a quick squirt... then nothing. (so many jokes to be made...)

Battery voltage at idle matters for much the same reason as the last 2 paragraph. Say you have 12.5v with key on and engine off, that's fine. Your battery is just dropping a tad because it is now powering lights. Now you crank... and the battery could very well dip down to 6V (but still depends on machine specs) because cranking takes a lot of juice. That's why I want numbers. If you told me it went to 4V on crank, I would say your battery is done. but now let's say You had 12.5 with just key, 6V on crank, and 12.2 at idle... that is fine. Your battery is supplying juice to lights, sensors, injectors, etc. If you had 12.5 with just key, 6 on crank, and 10v at idle, I would bet there is an electrical issue with your fuel pump or injectors. Just FYI in your particular case, a bad fuel pump could be causing the stalling when coasting. Immediately coming of the throttle and squeezing the clutch can cause a catastropic loss in fuel pressure.

I wanted to know voltage at 3000 to rule out the charging system completely. No EFI vehicle charges their battery at idle. NONE. Most "12V" systems run and stay within 0.2 volts of 14.4V at cruising rpm. That's why numbers are important. If you said that battery voltage was at 13V at 3000, that tells me your stator could be weak... on cars people call them alternators. IF it was 13V... there would be a couple more tests to do. 13V will not charge a system well, and you can get undervoltage issues, much like I described before. Now let's say your voltage is 18V or even 50V! That tells me your R/R is malfunction... there would be another couple tests to run and make sure. The R/R Regulates charge voltage and Rectifies the AC power from your stator to DC to run your bike and charge the system. Chopping the fuel or cranking the fuel suddenly can cause super wonky voltages with a bad R/R. ALL of this paragraph could be the cause of stalling when releasing throttle, OP. Overvolt or Undervolt cause issues. ALso, lets say you run around at 19V and boil the battery... but not immediatley noticible... stalling issues. Cranking and rest would be wonky, too.

I think, for the most part, I answered why I asked the specific numbers and insisted on them. EFI bikes NO NOT CHARGE at idle (exceptions, I am sure). The battery runs the bike (for the most part) from idle up to just under cruise rpm. If the stator was big enough to charge the system at idle, that that would be a waste of size and weight. The faster a generator spins, the higher voltage it makes.

In increments from key off bike sitting for a few hours (leakage), to key on (leakage, false ground/short), to crank (battery health), to idle (narrowing down parts that leak juice), to cruise RPM (health of Battery, Stator, and R/R.)

Now this is long, it's late, and I am sure I have made a number of mistakes. I have done some mild proofreading, but for the most part this should all be correct. If I am blatantly wrong about something I will gladly admit to it if it is pointed out. There are many people better than me at this reading this, I am sure of it. Just don't cancel me on twitter, please. I am a promising 40 year old NHL prospect.

Just to note. OP, is no way any of this directed to your electrical prowess or knowledge, nor is it meant to be a slight, at all. I simply wrote this whole thing to the forum readers why I WANT NUMBERS!

Cheers!

 

[LonelyIndian]

First edit: These numbers I will give generally hold true for modern, 12V "EFI" motorcycle systems, with a Lead-Acid Battery.

Sorry for the delay... it's the middle of winter so my summer hobbies aren't on my mind, lately.

So, first, nothing personal, but I wanted numbers, because in other forums, it is typical of an OP to post "voltage is good," when in fact they just can't admit that they know how to use a multimeter. I am NOT saying that is the case here, but I spent a long time on Gixxer.com trying to help dudes with electrical (and 2006-2010 was notoriously bad for electrical). "It's fine," drives me fricking nuts and I have blocked many users. Again, that is not what I am saying here, but numbers matter.

The reason I asked for so many numbers was to rule out different parts/issues. EFI engines are way more electronically complicated than carb's, obviously, but what most people dont realize HOW MUCH more. The number of people here in Edmonton I hear or see starting their cars and letting them idle in the driveway at -30C to "charge" their batteries is baffling. All that does is kill the battery.

This is NOT necessarily directed only at you, but maybe someone else is asking why I asked so many questions.... so I will answer why I did. For anyone reading... if you want to know more about what I am talking about or how a multi meter works and how to use it, I will take all the time in the world to help you if you simple gimme precise numbers. I know that I have saved a lot of people 10s of thousands of dollars, combined on other forums, either by doing it themselves and guiding them, or finding what their mechanic is missing.

Voltage across terminals with the key off and the bike sitting a while tells us the voltage at rest. If it holds at 12.6 or higher over a couple of days, we know that the stator charges, the R/R permits enough (enough does not mean correct) voltage across the system to charge, and the battery passes test one. there are more battery tests.

Testing battery CURRENT flow with the key OFF gives us "leakage current" while off. Most motorcycles leak a couple milliamps just sitting in the garage, no key, everything off. That's why we need to use trickle chargers, because if there is a draw of say 0.50A with everything turned off... that battery is leaking 0.5 Ah... and if your battery only has a 6 Ah capacity... it will be dead soon. A huge leak... or even in the order of 0.003 A could mean a ground fault within a battery connection.

Excessive current leak with the key ON, means that there is a leak along a supply...

Low voltage on cranking means the battery may be dickered and should be taken to a shop for a load test. Did it read 12.6 at rest? if it did, that means that the internal resistance is high and it cannot supply enough juice. Think of running your garden hose... letting go of the nozzle, and turning of the valve at the house. There is still the same pressure in that hose without being used, like your battery at 12.6V, but if you squeeze the nozzle you only get a quick squirt... then nothing. (so many jokes to be made...)

Battery voltage at idle matters for much the same reason as the last 2 paragraph. Say you have 12.5v with key on and engine off, that's fine. Your battery is just dropping a tad because it is now powering lights. Now you crank... and the battery could very well dip down to 6V (but still depends on machine specs) because cranking takes a lot of juice. That's why I want numbers. If you told me it went to 4V on crank, I would say your battery is done. but now let's say You had 12.5 with just key, 6V on crank, and 12.2 at idle... that is fine. Your battery is supplying juice to lights, sensors, injectors, etc. If you had 12.5 with just key, 6 on crank, and 10v at idle, I would bet there is an electrical issue with your fuel pump or injectors. Just FYI in your particular case, a bad fuel pump could be causing the stalling when coasting. Immediately coming of the throttle and squeezing the clutch can cause a catastropic loss in fuel pressure.

I wanted to know voltage at 3000 to rule out the charging system completely. No EFI vehicle charges their battery at idle. NONE. Most "12V" systems run and stay within 0.2 volts of 14.4V at cruising rpm. That's why numbers are important. If you said that battery voltage was at 13V at 3000, that tells me your stator could be weak... on cars people call them alternators. IF it was 13V... there would be a couple more tests to do. 13V will not charge a system well, and you can get undervoltage issues, much like I described before. Now let's say your voltage is 18V or even 50V! That tells me your R/R is malfunction... there would be another couple tests to run and make sure. The R/R Regulates charge voltage and Rectifies the AC power from your stator to DC to run your bike and charge the system. Chopping the fuel or cranking the fuel suddenly can cause super wonky voltages with a bad R/R. ALL of this paragraph could be the cause of stalling when releasing throttle, OP. Overvolt or Undervolt cause issues. ALso, lets say you run around at 19V and boil the battery... but not immediatley noticible... stalling issues. Cranking and rest would be wonky, too.

I think, for the most part, I answered why I asked the specific numbers and insisted on them. EFI bikes NO NOT CHARGE at idle (exceptions, I am sure). The battery runs the bike (for the most part) from idle up to just under cruise rpm. If the stator was big enough to charge the system at idle, that that would be a waste of size and weight. The faster a generator spins, the higher voltage it makes.

In increments from key off bike sitting for a few hours (leakage), to key on (leakage, false ground/short), to crank (battery health), to idle (narrowing down parts that leak juice), to cruise RPM (health of Battery, Stator, and R/R.)

Now this is long, it's late, and I am sure I have made a number of mistakes. I have done some mild proofreading, but for the most part this should all be correct. If I am blatantly wrong about something I will gladly admit to it if it is pointed out. There are many people better than me at this reading this, I am sure of it. Just don't cancel me on twitter, please. I am a promising 40 year old NHL prospect.

Just to note. OP, is no way any of this directed to your electrical prowess or knowledge, nor is it meant to be a slight, at all. I simply wrote this whole thing to the forum readers why I WANT NUMBERS!

Cheers!

Thanks for the explanation! I knew a little about this but now a know a bit more. I'll look into the numbers when I get home and I'll post them here.
The battery was replaced with a brand new one and I saw in one of my logs that the battery drops upon cranking and get back up to normal value. I'll get into the numbers as I can probably see what voltage the motorcycle is generating or using when cruising above 3k rpm.

 

[LonelyIndian]

Thanks for the explanation! I knew a little about this but now a know a bit more. I'll look into the numbers when I get home and I'll post them here.
The battery was replaced with a brand new one and I saw in one of my logs that the battery drops upon cranking and get back up to normal value. I'll get into the numbers as I can probably see what voltage the motorcycle is generating or using when cruising above 3k rpm.

So I checked the data.

The battery voltage nevers peaks above 14,4V when cruising above 3k rpm. It stay around this voltage during all of my trips.
The battery at start up (key on,engine off) sits at 12,8V. It varies a bit from log to log.
On start up it doesn't dip below 6 and gets back up to 13V.

A small update on the whole ordeal.
I have had contact with Indian Customer service. After a lot of emails (and we are still not done) it seems that an ECU calibration is performed while they update the ABS software. The funny thing here is that Indian Motorcycles is telling me the garage worked according to their specifications en as a result did nothing wrong. After telling them they installed software on my motorcycle without my consent or knowledge they starting investigating if the update could potentially damaged/bricked something.
Their field engineer is checking if the recalibration could have affected my ECU while the fuelmoto tune was installed.

I have some knowledge about the PV3 but not all. Does anyone know if the PV3 is capable of adjusting all parameters available on the ECU? I have read on the other forum that the PV3 has some restrictions and that a complete reflash/tune (like CraigB's tune or llloydz?) has more acces to every parameters. As such it could be deemed more complete but I have no idea how this works.

I'm asking if it the recalibration could have changed parameters which could cause the tunes to misbehave as they can't find original values anymore which were present on the ECU.
I have no idea so this is a wild guess. Hoping someone with more knowledge can clarify this for me.

I brought the motorcycle (again) to the same garage and they are currently investigating if they can reverse all software changes or do a complete reset of the ECU to stock 2019 model.
Fuelmoto told me the fuel trim is way off since the recall was performed. Their guess is that something went wrong in the air path. After telling this they have checked every vacuum line, EVAP system, fuel lines, throttle body, etc and found nothing to have ruptured, have a puncture or be faulty.

Keep you posted!

 

[MacBayne]

Glad you are getting somewhere! From those numbers, I no longer believe this to be an electronic issue. Best I can think of is a weak fuel pump/clogged fuel filter.

Good luck

 

[mark.lb]

LonelyIndian: Sounds like you are making some progress. Obviously the Indian dealership changed something. I had my FTR in the shop a few weeks ago for the coolant hose recall. I thought about your situation when I got to the shop. My final instruction was: Do not connect this motorcycle to any computer or digital wrench for any reason unless you call and ask me for permission. I think we all should be doing the same if we run aftermarket tunes.

 

[ferraiolo1]

Yeah always tape the diagnostic plug and write a note on it

 

[LonelyIndian]

So latest update ... It has been a few weeks since something actually has been done my FTR. This is going to be a longer post since it involves a rant about the atrocious experience I am having with Indian Motorcycles support.

Obviously the good news comes first! The engine has stopped stalling at every stop (Yay, I guess). I picked up some information from my emails with Indian support that a recalibration has been done while the ABS software was installed during the recall. This caused a ringing bell ofcourse and I forwarded this info the dealer who caused all this shit. The dealer reverted all the software and installed the latest stock tune (the one ending on 9LO or something like that). He calls me with the info that engine is running fine now and isn't throwing anymore codes.

Good lord did I hope this was true. Just starting the bike on his parking lot caused my check engine light to flash. I gave him the benefit of the doubt on this one because I had this same issue before after the S&S slip on was installed, which is currently installed.
After messing with the Fuelmoto tunes, since I have a couple of them, I can 100% be sure that there is still something wrong physically. The engine doesn't run better with the tunes and it seems like the engine is gasping for air or fuel, if you understand what I'm saying. It's raising RPM's and then bouncing of the idle mark.

I'm guessing there is something loose in a tiny way which should be causing my cylinder misfires. I could also be a clogged fuel pump since I still had the same fuel sitting for 6 months after my crash. I'm thinking there could still be some build up but my guess is currently as good anyone's. The fun fact is that when I drove over to the dealer, after driving it for two times while waiting for them to be ready, a hose was lose on my front cylinder. I already thought something was up because I was smelling fuel which was something new. After telling him, he had the most suprised look and quikly fixed it. I think this says enough about his trustworthyness regarding them checking everything.

Regarding the motorcycle I'm currently at crosspoint of just straight up selling the bike in the current state or driving it off to another dealer and have them check it.
I'm currently leaning to just straight up selling it because of the experience I had with Indian Customer support.

After telling this whole story to their Customer department, they tell me the international sales manager and country manager will be involved while discussing this case with my dealer.
This goes a bit back and forward to the point where they claim that the dealer has done everything he should have been doing (meeting their obligations) and that nothing or no one is at fault.

Apparently the ABS software is part of the recall and customers are aware of this. Are any of you aware of this? They made it seem like I was the dummy although I can't find any info regarding this on the recall page of Polaris, in the recall letter and did the dealer tell me nothing when I brought in my FTR.

After casually mentioning to them that it is still legally an obligation to tell people which defects are currently present on their products, they quikly changed their tone and brought in their international Service Engineer.
Again this goes a bit back and forward to the point that I am responsible for the aftermarket calibration on my FTR and that the dealer has done nothing wrong by installing the ABS software.

Hearing this blew my mind ... I have made it clear to Indian that the dealer was aware of the aftermarket calibration, as they recommended it to me, and that they should have informed me about the software update and asked if they could install it with my consent.
Not once did Indian Motorcycles offer any assistance to the dealer regarding this case. If they would have just told him that the ABS software contained a recalibration, a lot of this shit could have been avoided.

It seems they also don't give a damn about their riders. Altleast that's my interpretation of this whole ordeal. They have gone to blaming me with my aftermarket calibration and even the installation of an S&S exhaust, to just straight up saying he did what he should have been doing and that's the end of the story. With the nice saying at the end of that email dictating 'drive safe'.

Well that's the end of it. I might update after the other dealer fixed it but it probably won't happen.

Cheers for reading!

Edit: Seems I jinxed myself. When driving home it stalled 4 times when pulling the clutch, as I am cruising to a stop.
+

 

[Max Kool]

I have never heard of an ABS software update/recall for the FTR.

 

[ftwftr]

Thanks for this update. Just solidifies my intent to sell mine as well. I don't think I've read of one good experience someone has had dealing with an Indian dealership. I've been fortunate enough that I haven't had to take mine in, since the nearest dealer to me is 140 miles away. But I feel like it's only a matter of time before something breaks or quits working properly.

 

[LonelyIndian]

I have never heard of an ABS software update/recall for the FTR.

Thanks for confirming. According to my dealer and this being confirmed by Indian themselves, the FTR has a problem in their ABS software. If both wheels come of the ground, the ABS has a chance of locking the wheels, probably resulting in a crash.

I don’t know but this seems like a big deal. I can imagine someone taking a bump and straight up crashing because of this.

 

[Max Kool]

If both wheels come off the ground, the ABS has a chance of locking the wheels, probably resulting in a crash.

I'm not doubting you, but I do doubt if that information is correct. Afaik ABS never engages brakes, it releases it when it detects a wheel speed difference...

Anyway, I'm not worried (most of the time ABS/TC are off anyway).

 

[edgelett]

I've never heard of an ABS recall, and I agree with Max that the info they told you is the reason for the recall sounds very very dodgy.

Given the tunes you've tried are Fuel Moto tunes, and we know some people have not had good experiences with them, I still think you should try a Lloydz tune. You've eliminated most other possible causes, a poor tune is really the last possibility so I'd get in touch with Lloydz and tell them of your woes and ask for assistance.

 

[ferraiolo1]

It’s not a recall. It’s just a bulletin they can perform if the customer is having issues.

 

[LonelyIndian]

It’s not a recall. It’s just a bulletin they can perform if the customer is having issues.

Hmm it could be true. I don’t know unless I would be working for Indian.
These are the recall codes they gave me, I-22-04 and I-22-05.

One of those does link to the coolant junction recall. The other doesn’t show anything.

On the tunes. I seriously think there’s nothing wrong with the tunes.
I have been using them for over a year and have had no issues. If I had any, a small adjustment to the tune would have fixed it.

I still can’t wrap my head around the fact that a dealer goes to work on a bike and suddenly the tune would stop working. My guess is there is something wrong physically.

The symptoms are just too specific. It only happens when the engine is hot (above 70 degrees celcius) and when coasting to a stop.
So either there is something programmed wrong in 4 tunes (which could be the case) or there is something clogged or faulty.

@ferraiolo1 if that would be the case, I would be ashamed as a company.


At the end of the day I’m still stuck with a motorcycle that’s not safe to drive and they don’t care.

 

[edgelett]

didn't you change your exhaust setup? is the tune the right one for your exhaust setup?